so you're a rule follower

Today on CARD TALK, I’ll cover:
-why we follow rules (and why it's not always bad)
-why we challenge rules
-pages as the tarot's rebels
-which page are you?
-questions for deeper reflection

Recommended resources:
pages, patterns, and everyday rebellions essay on devils & fools
Ocean’s 16 workbook
Order in the Court series
Spiraling Through the Wisdom Year workshop with Bee Scolnick

For more on Meg, check out 3amtarot.com, and order your copy of Finding the Fool through Bookshop.org or your favorite local bookstore.

Find episode transcripts and more over on the CARD TALK website. And as a special thank you for CARD TALK listeners, click here to download a completely free, exclusive workbook for building your best personal tarot practice.

Love what you’re hearing? Support the pod with a one-time donation or recurring subscription, and please subscribe, review, and share with a friend or two!

Chapters

• 0:00 Rule Followers and Comfort Zones
• 3:38 Fascism and Challenging Authority
• 4:58 Pages, Patterns and Rebellions Essay
• 13:26 Finding Your Rebellious Nature
• 19:28 Working with the Pages
• 21:22 Episode Wrap-Up & Resources

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

I'm Meg Jones-Wall and this is Card Talk, a mini podcast for tarot basics and evergreen insights. I'm here to help you build a tarot practice that works for you. Glad you're here. Today. We are going to talk about being a rule follower and what it means to start to stretch out of our comfort zones when it comes to following and adhering to the rules. Now, before we go literally any further, I want to be so clear that rule followers are not bad people. Okay, if you identify as someone who is much more comfortable following the rules. We're adhering to systems. You're not a bad person. You're not a weak person. There's there's nothing wrong with it, as I'll talk about more in a few minutes.

Speaker 1: 0:53

Most of us were raised and taught and conditioned to be rule followers. It has been ingrained in us and trained into us since we were a very young age. We were taught to respect systems and to respect authority and to do as we're told, and for a lot of us, this was a way of keeping us safe. Right, following the rules keeps us safe, and in some cases, that's still true. If you were taught as a kid to look both ways before you cross the street, that is still an important rule to follow, no matter how old you get or where you are. It is generally a rule of thumb that is practical and logical and sensible in order to keep you safe, but there are other rules that are wildly arbitrary or that are put in place, in fact, to cause harm. And because we are living now in a time of fascism, we have in the United States a dictator-in-chief who is backed by tech bros and oligarchs and Christian nationalists who collectively hold a tremendous amount of power, and what that means is that these people are going to maintain their power and continue to grow their power by scaring us with rules that they set, ones that they don't even follow themselves, by the way and they're going to change those rules constantly as a gotcha. They're already doing it. They want to catch us off guard. They want to catch us in noncompliance so that they can label us as criminals or terrorists and punish us essentially, which means that being a rule follower is not necessarily going to keep us safe in the same way that it once did.

Speaker 1: 2:15

Now, if you're wondering why the fuck I'm talking about this on a tarot podcast, it's because I know that it can be really scary to think about disrupting the status quo or breaking rules or not following orders. I'm not telling you that you have to do anything, but I would love to encourage you, with the help of the tarot, to start practicing the art of thinking more critically about the rules as written and to think about what it looks like for you to challenge those rules Now. Whether you consider yourself a malicious compliance person which, like mad respect, I love malicious compliance people to someone who is doing kind of quiet disobedience in various ways or if you're someone who's more of an active frontline disruptor person, it doesn't matter, they're all great. It's important right now to keep your mind your own and to learn how to protect your mind and take care of your own thoughts and your own ideas and your own morality. It's important as well to start gently pushing back as and where you can in ways that are really consistently possible for you. That might look like organizing a union. That might look like spending time in solidarity with people in your area. That might look like getting plugged into local organizations that are creating new systems of care.

Speaker 1: 3:24

I've talked about this so many times over the years and I'm definitely not alone, but there are a lot of roles to be filled when it comes to surviving under fascism, and some of them in fact, I would say most of them require a certain flexibility around, instinctively following rules, following rules. The reason I'm talking about this on Card Talk today, besides the fact that I think it's important to name what's happening around us as often as possible is that tarot can be a really great tool for practicing the art of breaking or bending or pushing back on or challenging or questioning rules, whether it's the rules of the tarot themselves and again, using huge air quotes here, because I don't think tarot has that many rules besides do no harm. There are a lot of ways that we can use the tarot itself and the messages and wisdom of the tarot itself to explore our relationship with rules and our relationship with systems, and to practice keeping our mind our own. With all of that in mind, I'm actually going to do something new on Card Talk, something I haven't really done before, which is read an essay that I recently published on my newsletter. If you're already on my Devils and Fools newsletter list and you've read this essay already, don't worry. I'm going to share some additional ideas and thoughts, things that didn't make the essay cut, so to speak, afterwards, so you'll still be getting some new ideas and thoughts here, and if you haven't read it before, I hope you love hearing it in my voice, and I'll include a link to the full text, the full essay in the show notes Pages, patterns and Rebellions, an essay by Meg Jones-Wall originally published on April 21st 2025.

Speaker 1: 5:03

Depending on your brain and your personal history, words like rebellion or resistance or disruption might feel intimidating, scary or even downright dangerous. Here in the United States, we're trained from a very young age to follow the rules and conform, from the routines of public school mirroring the schedules of nine to five workers, from being taught to ask permission to care for our bodies in the most basic of ways during work or class time, from being shushed or silenced or dismissed when we require accommodations. Obedience is drilled into us and often we're praised or rewarded for this ability to fit in, to stay quiet and to do what we're told, even when that obedience causes us harm. If you were raised in a high-control religious environment, the stakes may feel even higher. This kind of submission and deference is framed as a requirement for eternal salvation, giving even the smallest instances of disobedience a very heavy cost. And, of course, if you live in a marginalized body. You know well that even the strictest adherence to the rules won't necessarily protect you from harm, however undeserved. None of this is by accident.

Speaker 1: 6:03

It's very important, especially under fascist rulers like Trump, for the masses to be terrified of speaking up, fighting back or acting outside of expectations. General reluctance to make waves or break from the status quo is essential for those in power to stay in power, and when leaders make very public examples of innocent people being unfairly punished or eradicated, it is a way of threatening all of us Obey or else. This is an essential reality to acknowledge as we consider where we are and where we're going. For most people, it's easier to continue to conform and stay quiet, to not ask questions, to keep the peace. Most people believe that by keeping their mouths shut and their heads down they will stay safe. But here's the thing we are not most people, you are not most people, and the more we practice the art of disobedience, the more we train our minds and bodies to intentionally break arbitrary rules, the easier it becomes to come up with creative solutions to problems, imagine new kinds of futures and stand up to those in power in more dramatic ways. Following the rules is not a guarantee of safety, and if the rules themselves are immoral, why would we want to follow them anyway?

Speaker 1: 7:19

Tarot has plenty of figures who can teach us about rebellion or who invite us to reconsider how things have always been done and why they've always been done that way. The fool, the empress, the chariot, the hermit, the hanged one, the devil, the tower, the star judgment, to name just a few. Every one of these archetypes can serve as an invitation to walk a new path. Express ourselves openly, break through barriers. Start a new path. Express ourselves openly, break through barriers, start a new journey. Change our perspective. Let something come crashing down. Reimagine the future or forgive ourselves for who we used to be. But for my money, some of the most rebellious figures in the deck aren't in the major arcana at all, but instead live amongst the court cards down here on earth with the rest of us Pages. The youngest and least experienced members of the court can teach us a lot about disobedience, asking questions, trying new things and being willing to fail.

Speaker 1: 8:15

If you're less familiar or comfortable with the court cards, it might be helpful to think of the pages in the tarot as children, students or interns People who know a few things but not everything. Pages are new here and are trying to figure shit out. Pages unapologetically interrupt you to ask questions. Pages wander off and get into something they shouldn't. Pages wonder why something has to be done a certain way. Pages color outside the lines, explore forbidden places, ask if they can touch the hot pan just to see what happens. Pages aren't ruled by expectation or tradition, by the unspoken rules, by the way that things are done around here.

Speaker 1: 8:54

To be a page is to be a bit of a menace complimentary. For some, embodying this page energy will feel as natural as breathing. Page energy will feel as natural as breathing. But for others, even the thought of behaving like this might be stressful, irritating or something to be instinctively rejected. Your response to the pages and to rebellion in general is not good or bad, positive or negative. It's just part of who you are, how you were raised and how your brain works. Pages can push our buttons, challenge our perspectives, force us to slow down and find answers when we don't really want to. But regardless of who you are, working with the pages, embracing and embodying the pages, finding delight in the pages, can help us locate and embrace this energy within ourselves and activate it more consistently in whatever way makes sense for us, as often as we need to.

Speaker 1: 9:46

In what ways are you brave? In what ways are you different, weird, strange? In what ways are you loud, disruptive, too much? When do you get shushed or slowed down, told to be patient or to wait your turn, or stop asking so many damn questions? What is a time that you stood up for yourself or for someone else, for an idea or a need, for a group of people or an animal, or a place or a resource? How have you challenged ideas, assumptions, rules, orders? What did it look like for you to do that and what did it cost? Would you do it again?

Speaker 1: 10:20

No matter who you are, there are so many ways that you can practice disobedience and that potent personal rebellion starts in the everyday. Listen, spending too much time on social media will eventually show you nothing but critics, even from people that you might politically or ethically agree with, complaints that every digital platform is bad, that protests aren't ever big or disruptive enough, that petitions don't matter, that representatives don't listen, that boycotts can't be sustained, that the system cannot be reformed on and on and on. Now, criticism is not the enemy here, since no action is perfect, but, as prison culture so succinctly stated on Blue Sky. We don't actually know what will work. That means that lots of things could work. The possibilities exist.

Speaker 1: 11:10

If rebellion feels uncomfortable for you or if you're very experienced at rebellion, it might feel easier to criticize than to get in there yourself. It's way harder to take a chance to put yourself out there, to lend your voice or your ideas or your body to a cause. But that's why this kind of work is so important because we need your mind, your creativity, your experience, your ideas. We need your talents, your skills, your resources. We need your ability to do something, even if your inner dictator is telling you that you shouldn't. We need you just as you are, showing up and getting connected and trying things that might not work, and learning from the experience and then trying again.

Speaker 1: 11:50

There are a lot of ways to show up, to take action, to make a difference, and it's fine if your best role isn't actually on the front lines as a disruptor or an offender. Neither is mine. I know it's easy to get caught up in the drama and courage and visibility embodied by the folks who are chaining themselves to buildings or screaming at cops or getting arrested, and trust that those people need our support and our encouragement, but don't minimize your contribution or let your inability to show up in person to demonstrations or protests or direct actions keep you from doing other essential, powerful things. It can be overwhelming to realize just how many paths forward there are, but in my own life, embracing the fact that I am uniquely suited to be a healer and a tender has helped me immensely in not feeling guilty for all the things I can't participate in, while empowering me to lean all the way into the things that I can do in. While empowering me to lean all the way into the things that I can do.

Speaker 1: 12:47

You have an important part to play too, one that utilizes your unique skills and talents, and one that you can start to cultivate right now Leaning into natural skills and instincts, exploring what is right at our fingertips, figuring out where we fit. This is exactly what pages do. It's what they're built for, which means that finding your personality and your talents and your abilities within the pages, recognizing the ways that you yourself already approach situations with unexpected ideas or unconventional solutions, can help you figure out what your own spirit of disobedience might actually look like. Are you passionate and bold halfway through an action, before you even actively decided to do it easily and eagerly, pushing back at any restrictions, like the page of wands. Are you curious and inquisitive, never satisfied with answers, no matter how in depth, able to gather and share and archive information as easily as breathing? Like the page of swords? Are you idealistic and emotional, refusing to quiet your feelings or hide your awe at the world or be ashamed of your sensitivity, like the page of cups? Are you hungry and active, trusting your body and the wisdom it carries, willing to get your hands dirty and become lost so that you can be found, like the page of pentacles? What would it mean to let those energies and instincts take up more space in your daily life? What if you stopped acting like your passionate and enthusiastic approach, or your natural curiosity and attention to detail, or your deep compassion for people around the world, or your willingness to protect the physical spaces and beings around you were somehow bad things? What if you invited a little rebellion, a little questioning, a little pushback into your everyday?

Speaker 1: 14:28

Now, to be clear, there are so many ways to understand these page figures, which means that your descriptions of or relationships with these pages might be completely different than mine, and that is fantastic. I am not here to tell you what to do or how to understand these pages and their skills. I'm just here to tell you what to do or how to understand these pages and their skills. I'm just here to encourage you to do it your own way. Your flavor of interpretation and your practice of rebellion doesn't need to look like mine. It's actually better if it doesn't. And so I ask you, how can these pages help you find your lane? Learn to question big things, get more comfortable with pushing back or thinking differently or challenging rules, whether those rules were written by you or by someone else? How can you work with one or more pages to explore your relationship with resistance and rebellion, to find a way to expand your perspective on what it means to disrupt? How can you learn to see yourself in these figures and practice disobedience often enough that it becomes an essential piece of who you are? How can you become a menace in the best possible way?

Speaker 1: 15:35

I wrote this essay because I really do feel like the pages model for us ways of coming into a situation and immediately questioning the premise of everything. Now, this is not going to be comfortable for everyone. As I said in the essay, everyone is going to have a different response to that idea, and everyone's going to express their uncertainty or their questions or their pushback in different ways, and that is a good thing. That is a feature, not a bug. We're not looking for people who are going to do everything the exact same way. Our strength really is in our difference here, and so I think the fact that there are four different pages representing four different elements, four different approaches, four different skill sets is a really beautiful reminder that it takes all kinds to make real change and to take care of one another. We're all going to come into a situation challenging different things or noticing different discrepancies or offering different ideas on how something could be better. And so, as you think about this idea, as you think about the pages in the tarot and how they represent different approaches to mischief making, to question asking, to pushing back, to risk-taking, to trying new things, to touching the hot pan, you know, whatever it's going to be, I really want you to embrace the fact that each page is going to have a different approach, and I want you to embrace the fact that it's okay If you don't personally align with all four pages. One is probably going to feel way more comfortable for you than the others, and it might be that several of them feel really good and several of them don't feel bad, but maybe just don't feel as representative of your own natural skills and abilities and like inquisitive energy.

Speaker 1: 17:11

Personally, I really resonate with the page of swords and the page of cups. I like to ask questions and I have a lot of feelings. I like information. I like to give and gather and share and disperse information as I can, and I also like to encourage people to sit with things that matter, to trust their intuition, to engage with people in a way that is vulnerable and sensitive, to create beauty in the world and enjoy the beauty of the world. Those things feel really intrinsic to not only who I am as a person, but also to how I disrupt. I love to challenge people to actually sit with their feelings, which can be really uncomfortable. I love to give people permission to feel the things that they need to feel or to express the things that they need to express in a safe and protected way, whether that's private or in community with other people. Those things are really central to my work and are also really reflective of how I move through the world.

Speaker 1: 18:08

I am someone that wants to have information, that wants the people I care about to have information, that wants my neighbors and community to have information, even if I didn't create it myself, and you know if you follow me on Instagram, you probably know that I always have stories up with links to other articles or action items or mutual aid funds or you know new things that are happening. And if you click the link and actually look at this essay as written, I think it has at least one link in almost every paragraph. I have links to tons of other resources and writings and essays and books and all of these different things that are going to help you continue to learn about this idea and explore it in a way that works for you. That's just a quick example to help you understand what I mean when I say that the pages can help us really clarify our own spirit of rebellion and start leaning into that in an intentional way. We can't all do all the things, and that's okay. That's why we do these things in community, and so practicing rebellion with people you love, with people around you, finding ways to engage in a more consistent way, even if you have to start really, really small, which is fine, can be a really potent and powerful way to start challenging the systems that we're in and thinking more critically about which rules you're following and why you're following them, and if it's actually good that you're following them or if it would be better to push back on them a bit.

Speaker 1: 19:27

Now. I always like to end these episodes with a tip or a trick, just something that you can take forward from this and really think about. Now that the episode is wrapping up, and in this case, I just really want to encourage you to spend some time with each of the pages. If you know right off the bat that there's a page that you feel really drawn to, that you feel really reflects your personality and your skills and your strengths and your desires, pull that page out of your deck, take a picture of it and keep it as your phone background or put it on an altar. Put it somewhere you can see and think about what it means to embody that page in different ways throughout your life in your work, in your relationships, in your play, in your rest, in your creative practices, in your spiritual practices, whatever it may be. But think about what that page would do in various situations and think about what it might look like for you to more intentionally step into that energy. If you're not sure, spend time with all four pages, one by one, journal through the process and think about what that might look like and how it feels to embody those different energies and kind of disruption, rebellion styles.

Speaker 1: 20:30

If you want help doing that, I have a ton of resources on the court cards in general, but I also released a new workbook called Ocean 16. It's heist themed because I love a heist, but it literally will walk you through really practical ways to do this with not just the pages but every member of the court. Now this essay will be the first in a series of essays. Of course I'm going to write about the other court cards in various ways, but those essays aren't written yet. The workbook is, so feel free to click the link in the show notes and check that out If this is a concept that's really resonating for you.

Speaker 1: 21:02

I know that things are really scary and hard and fucked up right now, but I am so grateful to you for spending this 20 minutes or so with me, for listening to my ideas and my thoughts. I sincerely hope that they have been supportive and helpful and inspiring for you. I'm sending you so much love and safety and I will be back again soon with more Card Talk. Card Talk episodes are always free for everyone to enjoy, so if you love what you hear, please consider supporting the podcast by subscribing, recommending Card Talk to a friend or donating to help with production costs. You can find episode transcripts, learn more about me and join my signature Tarot Conservatory membership program through my website, 3amtarotcom. Thanks for listening and see you next time.