the traditional vs. intuitive debate

Today on CARD TALK, I’ll cover:
-the great debate between traditional & intuitive card meanings
-how i define "traditional" and "intuitive"
-why i prefer the term "standardized" meanings
-where my own meanings come from

Tarot history resources:
Everything by tarot scholars Mary K. Greer, Rachel Pollack, and Robert M. Place
Women of Tarot by Cat Willett
78 Acts of Liberation by Lane Smith
Shuffling Through History mini-series by the In Search of Tarot podcast

For support in exploring both standardized and personal meanings, check out the 3am.tarot conservatory.

For more on Meg, check out 3amtarot.com, and order your copy of Finding the Fool through Bookshop.org or your favorite local bookstore.

Find episode transcripts and more over on the CARD TALK website. And as a special thank you for CARD TALK listeners, click here to download a completely free, exclusive workbook for building your best personal tarot practice.

Love what you’re hearing? Support the pod with a one-time donation or recurring subscription, and please subscribe, review, and share with a friend or two!

Chapters

• 0:11 Exploring Traditional vs Intuitive Tarot Meanings
• 5:03 Navigating Traditional and Intuitive Tarot Meanings
• 12:21 Navigating Tarot Interpretation Methods

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

I'm Meg Jones-Wall and this is Card Talk, a mini podcast for tarot basics and evergreen insights. I'm here to help you build a tarot practice that works for you. Glad you're here. Glad you're here. In today's episode, we are going to be talking about traditional versus intuitive meanings for your tarot cards, and this is the first in what's going to be a small group of episodes where I unpack different ways that you can make meanings from your cards.

Speaker 1: 0:39

Now, before we get into this topic, I need you to know that I am using just the hugest air quotes around both of these words, around traditional and around intuitive, not because these words don't mean anything they absolutely do but because in this particular debate, these terms get really flattened out and narrowed. I want to go ahead and define these terms so that you know what I mean by them, but please know that there might be other people in this conversation that define these words very differently than me, and this is a conversation that comes up a lot in tarot spaces, on social media, in classes and books and just in general conversation. I, as ever, I'm just one person offering my perspective on this debate in this conversation, because, even if the way that this conversation gets simplified and argued over on social media kind of annoys me. I do think that it's really important to talk about and clarify Now. I'll probably say this a couple different times throughout the episode, but I want to be clear here that, as far as I know, most of the tarot readers that I practice with and am in reciprocal community with and get readings from, don't even really engage in this debate.

Speaker 1: 1:42

It's kind of a false binary, and most of us use both of these methodologies as part of our practice, both in personal readings and in client work, as well as in teaching and the creation of resources. If you read my book Finding the Fool, you will absolutely see some standardized meanings sprinkled throughout there, right there on the pages, but they're going to be alongside my own personal meanings and interpretations right there on the pages, but they're going to be alongside my own personal meanings and interpretations. Most of us really do use both and don't differentiate between traditional and intuitive meanings. It all gets to be part of the practice. However, the folks who feel strongly about this binary, who fall on one side or the other, feel very strongly about it, and so if you are someone who is relatively new to tarot and you're also someone who is, like, extremely online. You will probably see this debate happening at some point on social media or on forums or whatever, and I just don't want you to have your spiritual shit rocked because of some mean girl on threads who isn't particularly speaking with a lot of nuance. Again, I think this debate is kind of bullshit, because I think this binary is kind of bullshit. But working through and thinking about these ideas on your own it can be a really helpful aspect of your practice and can help you clarify where your tarot meanings have come from, why you feel certain ways about your cards and how you can work those cards more intentionally and look if you feel that you fit really firmly into one of these camps or you yourself have a really strong opinion about this, that's absolutely fine. Your practice is your own and the language that you use to define your practice is also your own. But it's helpful to know what other people might mean by these terms or what they might be talking about when they use these terms. So, to the best of my ability, I'm going to offer my own understanding of how these terms are used as a jumping off point to start this conversation. Again, other people might define these words a little bit differently, but this is what I have observed from watching people have this conversation in various places over the years.

Speaker 1: 3:37

Let's start by talking about the word traditional. Now, straight off the top, the word traditional can be kind of loaded because it implies history study and established structure, but it's not particularly specific. When the word traditional is used in a tarot context, it can mean a couple of different things, which can be helpful, but it's also a little bit confusing and usually requires some additional questioning or interrogation so that everyone gets to be on the same page. Now, for some folks, when they use the word traditional to talk about decks or meanings, they're talking about decks specifically from about a hundred years ago, or decks that are particularly associated with the Order of Golden Dawn. This would be the Rider-Waite-Smith deck and the Thoth deck, which were both published in the early 1900s or mid 1900s in the case of the Thoth deck. Now there's a lot of writing and study around these decks, particularly the Rider-Waite-Smith, and additionally, if you do a kind of general Google search or web search on the internet, or if you flip to a generic tarot book or little white book, you're probably going to see writing that aligns with the meanings that are associated with the Rider-Waite-Smith. In other words, a lot of the most common or popular keywords and definitions and correspondences that you're going to see replicated and repeated and shared over and over are taken from writings about the Rider-Waite-Smith, as well as Rider-Waite-Smith imagery, symbolism and literature.

Speaker 1: 5:03

I asked a question on social media the other day, around where people get their meanings, and someone said I go straight to the source and then talked about the Rider-Waite-Smith deck. So it's important to know that when people say traditional, they often are pointing to these decks that are about a hundred years old, but tarot is much older than that, and so there's a whole other group of people who, when they use the word traditional, are actually going to be referring to Marseille meanings which are more than a hundred years older than the Rider-Waite-Smith and Thoth decks. Of course, there's an argument that the Marseille meanings are even more traditional because they're even older, but you're going to find different people using the word traditional to refer to different standardized decks and popular decks. Now, regardless of which deck or source this tradition is coming from or is referred to or is meant to be from, these are often the commonly collectively accepted or commonly shared definitions of the cards. As I said, this includes the keywords, the correspondences and the meanings. So, for example, if you type tarot emperor meaning into your web browser search, you're likely going to find a lot of websites listing the same kinds of words and ideas authority, discipline, leadership, patriarchy, control, et cetera. Now you can absolutely dig deeper and find additional layers of meaning and additional keywords, as well as correspondences and other ways of viewing this archetype, but these are going to be the top hits right, and so, for a lot of people, these would be considered the traditional meanings, especially because they are so commonly replicated and repeated in resources and books, even ones that are getting published today.

Speaker 1: 6:40

Now, I'm using the word traditional in this episode because that's the language that is commonly used when I see this conversation happening. But in general, when we're talking about these kinds of meanings, these really commonly repeated meanings, I tend to use the word standardized rather than traditional. For me, standardized seems a little bit more specific, even though it's not pointing to a particular tradition, but it kind of acknowledges the fact that there are meanings that are really regularly replicated. However, if you prefer the word traditional, that's completely fine too, and in my experience, most people are going to know what you're referring to. You just might have to be specific about whether or not you're talking about Rider-Waite-Smith meanings, thoth meanings, marseille meanings or something else. I also want to quickly just define the term intuitive when people are using it in this particular conversation.

Speaker 1: 7:29

Now, when people say that they're intuitive tarot readers or that their meanings for the cards are based in intuition, they typically seem to be referring to a genre of tarot reader who throws out the guidebook that comes with their deck, who's not as familiar with history and who creates their own meanings based purely on emotional, spiritual and psychological reactions to each card. So, really, the TLDR here is that this is a person who is making their own meanings or creating their own meanings, or discovering their own meanings, or discovering their own meanings from the cards based on what they see in the imagery and based on what they feel, in other words, based on what their intuition is sharing with them when they take time to work with a specific card. Now, this might sound really simple and really easy to do, but I think that it is worth noting that a lot of the imagery in tarot decks, especially if it's a deck based off of Rider-Waite-Smith imagery are still going to naturally point you towards certain meanings. Right, and so even if someone has a long established practice based in their own intuitive meanings, or claims that they use only intuitive meanings and have, like, never read a book about tarot or don't know anything about the history and structure of tarot, if they're using a Rider Waite-Smith style deck, they might still interpret that card in a similar way to someone who's relying on more standardized keywords or who has done a lot of study into the symbolism and history of the tarot. Of course, that doesn't mean that the person who created these intuitive meanings is lying or is confused, but it does mean that you might still see similarities between someone who is reading in an intuitive style and someone who is very familiar with the traditions of tarot history.

Speaker 1: 9:07

But intuitive meanings can also refer to meanings that might be more personal to the reader. This could be when someone takes the time to really pay attention to how their experiences might be mirrored in these cards or how this card might speak to them personally, based on their own history, personality, et cetera, and outside of meanings. I also just want to acknowledge that sometimes, when people say they're an intuitive tarot reader, they actually mean something different. They're talking about the fact that the cards might be communicating with them beyond what's depicted in the imagery or whatever deck they're using or whatever traditions they're familiar with. This could be using the cards in an intuitive way or connecting with psychic gifts, using observation and conversation with the querent, et cetera. Right, because sometimes we are going to take the card in a different direction than we might normally, based on a particular reading or the card that shows up in a certain position in a spread, or the querent and the question. Right, the cards are still living, breathing things, and sometimes they're going to be offering us information that might feel a little bit different than what the card might typically mean.

Speaker 1: 10:11

Now, this conversation tends to get quite heated, especially when you have tarot teachers or people who are well-known in the tarot sphere involved, and I think part of that is because tarot is an established tool with a real history and a real structure. There are a lot of tools for divination, there are lots of different ways that we can interact with the greater than human world, but tarot has a specific system built into it and does have standardized meanings, whether you choose to really lean on them or not, and I've definitely seen a number of tarot teachers get kind of heated or upset when people tell them that they don't need to know anything about tarot's history or the standardized meanings of the cards. I have seen the argument if you don't want to learn the history of tarot or you don't care about the standardized meanings of the tarot, you shouldn't be using tarot cards, and I don't, frankly, really know that. I agree with that, but I understand where they're coming from. I will say that I do place a lot of value on personal intuition and I really strongly believe that building personal meanings for the cards is a really powerful way to deepen your reading skills, and I also think that there's something to be said for knowing about the tool you're using, even when it's just the basics. My own tarot teaching style absolutely includes recommending that folks familiarize themselves with basic correspondences so that they can recognize where these standardized meanings come from and decide how much they really want to use them. But I always think more knowledge is going to be better, and so generally I fall on the side of having the foundation of the standardized meanings in your pocket and being aware of them and understanding where these meanings have come from, based on the correspondences that are built into the cards, but also having a really strong relationship with the cards themselves and knowing how to layer personal meanings on top of those standardized meanings to give yourself lots of options when working with the tarot. And again, in my experience, that's how a lot of other professional tarot readers operate. I don't think there's any right or wrong way to do this, and I think that standardized often gets glossed over or used as an insult for simple or boring or impersonal.

Speaker 1: 12:21

Standardized meanings are not simple. I personally have gotten plenty of tarot readings from folks who stick almost entirely with the Rider-Waite-Smith meanings and primarily utilize those meanings in their readings, and those readings were amazing. They were incredibly accurate, supportive, deep, personal and nourishing. Just because someone's using popular, common or standardized meanings for their cards doesn't mean they're a beginner and it certainly doesn't mean that their readings are going to be impersonal or basic. And, in the same way, intuitive is not shorthand for more authentic or more personal or more magical. Just because someone didn't learn the tarot using a little white book or a guidebook or studying traditional meanings, it doesn't automatically make their interpretations better or more true or more interesting or more legitimate. Okay. It just means that they're going outside of standardized meanings and traditions in order to use the tarot in their own way, and that's just a different way of reading. It's not better or worse than using standardized meanings.

Speaker 1: 13:22

Now, as I said at the beginning, your tarot practice is entirely up to you. Whether you spend years and years studying standardized meanings, tarot traditions, the oldest decks around and the various writings on the cards that have been offered throughout history, or you throw out the guidebook entirely and just rely purely on your own intuition and observation to develop meanings. That gets to be a central part of your practice. But I think knowing how to name that, being conscientious and aware that that is your practice and that that's where your meanings have come from, and also having the language to explain where your card meetings come from, is really important, whether you're just reading for yourself, reading for other people or eventually thinking about going pro and reading for clients. I'm not going to tell you which one you should do, so my tip for this episode is do both If you want to. I do. A lot of us do.

Speaker 1: 14:14

I don't want you to get hung up on social media debates or choosing a side or feeling like you can only use traditional meanings or intuitive meanings or different language that completely feels separate from both of these binaries. If you take courses or buy resources from me, you will absolutely find a blend of standardized meanings from specifically from Marseille style correspondences, which are numerology and elemental correspondences. But you'll also see a lot of encouragement for me to spend time with the cards and develop meanings that feel really personal for you. I think this is more fun to read that way when we have personal connections to individual cards, and I also think personally that it gives richer readings. Again, this is a debate on social media and in books and in all kinds of places that tends to bring out a lot of strong language and strong opinions and heated feelings.

Speaker 1: 15:03

So if you're just getting started with the cards and feel overwhelmed, I really encourage you to just pace yourself, to not try to learn too much at once, to not feel like you have to memorize every tradition that's ever been out there for tarot before you read, and also to try incorporating both practices into your studies. You might find that when you start learning more about tarot history or learning more about the ways that card meanings were developed, you get really excited and want to keep digging. Or you might find that as you start reading about these standardized meanings or digging into the correspondences, you don't really like them and you want to branch out or try a different method for learning. It's literally fine. It gets to be your practice and you get to decide what feels the best for you.

Speaker 1: 15:43

To help you out, I am going to drop some of my favorite tarot history resources into the show notes both a couple of just creators and teachers and scholars whose general work is really supportive, as well as two new books that came out in 2024 that I think are particularly helpful. And if you're interested in learning more about correspondences like numerology, or if you want help in making your own personal tarot meanings, I'm going to drop some resources for that in the show notes as well. Don't forget that I have a completely free workbook resources available just to card talk listeners, and you can find that through the show notes as well. We've got a couple more episodes on tarot card meanings and deepening your practice on the docket, but that's all I have for you right now. So, as always, thank you for joining me for this episode of card talk and I'll see you soon.

Speaker 1: 16:30

Card talk episodes are always free for everyone to enjoy, so if you love what you hear. Please consider supporting the podcast by subscribing, recommending Card, talk to a friend or two or donating to help with production costs. You can find episode transcripts. Learn more about me and join my signature Tarot Conservatory membership program through my website, 3amtarotcom. Thanks for listening and see you next time.